A WORD WITH THE CHEF

THE TASTE PODCAST INTERVIEW

January 29, 2023

If you prefer to listen, Matt Rodbard’s interview with Chef Paprocki begins at 44:15 following a terrific conversation between Aliza Abarbanel and Hetty McKinnon.

MR: Ron Paprocki, welcome to the Taste Podcast!

RP: Thank you, happy to be here.

MR: I love talking to working chefs—Gotham, what a legendary restaurant you run. Absolutely essential to understanding New York City restaurants is understanding Gotham. Let’s get right into it—what is Gotham, and how have you transitioned from pastry to running the show?

RP: Well for starters, Gotham certainly is a legendary restaurant, I feel, and I’m sure many others do as well. It is a place that means a lot to so many people, including myself. I’ve been here about ten years, started in pastry, then transitioned into running the whole kitchen, including savory. Yeah, it’s a big project.

MR: Yes, I’m sure. Alfred Portale, the long-time chef, we’ll talk about your relationship with him and running it with him, but currently you are doing excellent food. I have been there a couple of times in the past six months, and I just enjoy my time at Gotham. You have a stunning dining room, and the location is kind of unique I feel.

RP: Yes, it’s really right off the main drag, but not too much, and one of things that kind of took me off guard when I first started here in May 2012 was how much of a neighborhood restaurant it is. With other restaurants that I have worked in, they were not that, and to have something as large yet just a quick walk over to Fifth Avenue from 12th Stree,t and see all of those fancy homes over there, it really is a neighborhood setting.

MR: It is so interesting because it is in the Village, buffering the East Village, and you don’t have restaurants that size, and you bring up the point of the size of it and the vertical space as well. Now go back with me to when you first started working there with Alfred Portale, what was the general kind of cuisine there and how would you describe it? Early on, and then we will get to the progression.

RP: Yes his food was fantastic, and he had such a huge following, and he made, simply, quite craveable food. And you know the following was really large, and it was slightly intimidating to have the opportunity to work for him, and certainly there is this aura about him, but then once you get to know him, you see how great a person he is.

MR: I mean, I’ve been called by chefs after writing—meaning the negative call you receive as a journalist—and I wrote about Alfred back in 2007, and I misquoted him probably, and he gave me his whole opinion about it, and I was like you know, all right, that’s how he rolls, and respect to that; when journalists get things wrong, pick up the phone and call them. (I don’t think I got it wrong for the record, I think it was actually the right one!) But he mentored you, obviously, in so many ways.

RP: Yes, I mean we both came from different backgrounds, in the sense that I was coming from a midtown restaurant, and he was certainly the master of the West Village, if you will, and certainly a well-established restaurant with long-tenured employees in the kitchen, and the food was very reliable because you had the same individuals or chefs making the same food year after year after year, and so that’s why it became such an institution, because as much as trends come and go, his food was very reliable.

MR: Can you describe the cuisine at Gotham? Because I think that you’ve got a French influence but it’s a New American approach in some ways? I hate throwing around these terms because it needs to come from the source, I mean from you.

RP: From the time that I entered in 2012, the menu was a hit list of sorts, and looking back at his menu, there was the miso cod, there was the 28-day strip steak, which was 12 oz. and had all the accoutrements and wasn’t like a steakhouse set where here’s the steak and everything is plated à la carte. It was complete kit on the plate, which was nice, and there was just a lot of tall food as well, and he was certainly the legend of that. It was when I came in, about a year or two after I came in, that he started to go slightly more horizontal on some things. Taking the seafood salad for example, which was such an iconic dish of his, it was fairly tall, and then he changed the set and still kept all the same components and flavors but started to go more horizontal if you will.

MR: And you were the executive pastry chef at the time, and I wanted to have you on because this transition, going from just pastry to running the whole show is interesting and kind of rare. What kind of desserts are you doing, and we’ll get into your history too, but for Gotham, what are some of your trademark dishes?

RP: When I arrived, the first thing I added on in the fall of my first year was the apple tarte tatin for two. I came from Gordon Ramsey at The London Hotel in Midtown, and I was there for 5-1/2 years and then after working there, really dealing with a couple of different outlets, we had a kind of casual dining space of about 85 seats, and also the two-Michelin star, which was a 45-seat room in addition to the 500 rooms for room service for dining, but you know—when I arrived there, it was a good learning experience, where I had a lot of ideas to implement, and then I realized that I needed to understand the customer base and what they were looking for and certainly going into more classical flavor profiles, and that was really a learning experience for me because I was, I wouldn’t say I was on the edge of avant garde, but desserts that I was accustomed to producing for the last five years, they were definitely much more contemporary.

MR: Midtown, Ramsey, all had kind of a contemporary feel to it while Gotham more classic traditional but also comforting.

RP: Craveable.

MR: Craveable, sure, and you went to school in Germany. I was reading some of your bio, and you got your ass kicked in German; so you’re in pastry school—you did a decade as a landscape designer, so you had a career before this—So then you are in German pastry school, all in German, so what the hell was going on here?

RP: Yes, well that was a big career change for me, but it was an opportunity that I had that I definitely took, I figured when would I have this opportunity again, so I packed up, moved over there, and was in an immersive five-day a week 9-5 language school just to learn German, and then once that was done, I went around to find a pastry shop or restaurant that would take me on as an apprentice and so coupled with doing an apprenticeship program, you have to find an employer that will sponsor you, and then you also you have to go to school as well, and so all the schooling was done in German, so that is why I needed to know that.

MR: Wow, so what are some of the classic German pastries that you were learning, or were you learning more French technique?

RP: Well no, actually it was all in German and German cuisine and style for sure. We got into a lot of laminated breads and doughs, but there are things like Schmande-Sahne-Torte and Schwarzwälder-Kirsch-Torte, the Black Forest cake which we are all familiar with. There were just so many different things that were not French.

MR: That’s cool that that’s your background, and it seems like German pastry is certainly not on the level that we see on the national and world stage with French pastry, but there is a real history and heritage there.

RP: Absolutely, and it was something that I felt that when I was finished over there—I was over there five years—but when I was finished I came back I went right to NYC, stayed with my sister who lived in Brooklyn, lived on her sofa for a couple of months (probably a couple of months longer than she wanted me to stay!) until I was able to find an apartment, and job-wise, I found that pretty quickly, but the apartment took longer. I worked at a French patisserie shop called Financier Patisserie that was down on Stone Street.

MR: Cool, making a lot of macaroons?

RP: Yes, that too, but also seeing that there was a niche in the Germanic pastries that I knew, so I started putting that into the rotation as well.

MR: Sure—that’s exciting. Now let’s talk about the transition that you made from running the pastry kitchen which has its own flavor and schedule to running the whole show. When you got that call, what was that like, that you were going to be the whole guy, what was that like?

RP: Yes, I mean I was honored and very appreciative of that, and certainly up for the challenge, that I felt that if you are any place for any period of time you become content, but also knowledgeable as well, and so going through a transition of chef change over there, and then seeing the customer base and really understanding the numbers if you will, what items are the top sellers, which are the least, and really understanding why and who are dining in that area. Really I found that I had a pretty good handle on creating a menu that not only comforts and welcomes our regulars but that is also inviting to have people come in for the first time and try.

MR: What are some of the dishes that you find right now are really that you brought on the menu?

RP: Right now we are doing, a fun dish is the Arctic char, which we actually couple it with our piquillo nage sauce, and also cactus and pickled onions, so it is a dish that adds a little heat with the chilis but it all tastes very familiar together but really comes out of that box of routine Arctic char. It definitely hits all the right notes for me.

MR: I want your opinion about pastry, you must have some opinions, because you’re working here, you’ve worked at various levels of dining, middle fine, you’ve worked at a pastry shop—what are some pet peeves you have about pastry in New York City?

RP: I love trying anything, in terms of anything, what’s on the menu, I love giving it a shot, but you know I like to have simplistic flavors that make sense. I mean, everybody should have some type of twist or some type of little action going on if you will, but it shouldn’t be overcomplicated. I think a lot of people, young chefs, when they go out they tend to overcomplicate things, and then it kind of loses the overall appeal, and I know for myself, growing up in pastry, in the profession that it was, we always had a lot of chefs from Europe there, being very exploratory, and really very inspiring, but you also had 9, 10, 11 components on a dish and you just have to kind of call a time-out.

MR: Yes, call time out, take a beat, maybe take out half of those components, you know, simplicity is sometimes the most difficult form of cooking. Right?

RP: Exactly, that’s why the apple tarte tatin is still on the menu, we have it on from the first day of fall to the first day of spring, and it’s apples, sugar, butter, puff pastry, and you know there’s one way to make it right and a lot of ways to make it wrong.

MR: Restaurant Week is happening right now, it is like a grand tradition in NYC in January and February, when times are a little slower for all restaurants. To do these specials—these set menus—you’re participating —what’s your take on Restaurant Week, because it can be difficult for staff, we know it changes economics and levels of demand.

RP: Yes absolutely, so looking at it from my perspective now, I think it is a great thing to participate in, I mean as the guy, ya, running the show. Certainly as a cook it is something that messes with routine, if you will, in terms of cover counts and also dining trends or habits, and how people are eating, what menu items are selling more than others. It’s important now, and if you are not participating, you are going to be cutting staff hours, and you are going to also lead to staff attrition, and you know that is the opposite of what we want.

MR: What’s on the menu, you put that one dish—char?

RP: No char, but we do have a delicious branzino, and it has a fennel puree and some charred peppadew peppers on there and it’s really a fantastic tasty dish.

MR: As I young New Yorker, I certainly loved Restaurant Week, it was one of my favorite weeks, I used to make four or five reservations.

RP: Currently it is four weeks right now, and it is something that allows people to have an opportunity to come in and not really fully commit to the costs of a restaurant, and it is something that if you like to have this little preview, then perhaps you’d like to come some other time.

MR: I loved what you guys did with Gotham, lightened it up, I remember years ago it was darker and it felt a little more enclosed. It’s a beautiful dining room—you have opened up the ceiling, and I love the art. Do you have a rotating gallery it feels like?

RP: Yes, I know it is really special, I mean people have particular areas where they like to come in and to repeat dine in their area with their corner of artwork, and it’s certainly a great venue in which to highlight the works over there.

MR: Ron, let me ask you, many chefs have libraries of cookbooks that you go back to—do you have any in your collection that you go back to, that either are on your dessert side or the savory side that you just love to read?

RP: Yes, I have a huge collection of cookbooks, literally hundreds, and from the pastry perspective I have a lot of books from the Spanish pastry chefs, whether it is Ramon Morato, Oriol Balaguer, Paco Torreblanca, Albert Adria, and on and on. One book that was very inspirational for me was the Natura book by Albert Adria. I believe he put that out—I was working for Gordon Ramsay at the time—I want to say maybe 2009 or so—and you know it really the best way to describe his plating style was “natura,” you know it was very natural, environmental, seascapes, landscapes, or moonscapes, and it was something that really affected me, and certainly that I wanted to kind of replicate.

MR: Cool—wonderful, that must be exciting when you read a book and see a pastry with moonscape, wow, amazing. Have you done anything similar to that?

RP: I have taken components similar to that…the kind of fun thing is his desserts, and we were just talking about his desserts, his multiple components, that there might be seven to ten components on a dish, but taking certain elements and interacting with your ideas…yes, I’ve used a lot of his stuff over the years.

MR: Do you ever get to have pastry around NY, I wonder if you dine out for inspiration, if you have any favorites, somebody you love right now?

RP: I mean, to be honest with you—desserts, I don’t really know what the trend is in terms of what the hotspots are in terms of desserts. My friend opened up a restaurant, Koloman, and the desserts are fantastic.

MR: It’s getting wonderful reviews, you are the third person who has mentioned it recently!

RP: Yes! He gives us $10 every time we mention…

MR: Haha, yeah, you get a free bread basket if you mention the name. Yes that is cool. Back to the history of NY dining, are there any pastry chefs that like wowed you?

RP: Well, it was really Sam Mason, Johnny Izzuni…

MR: …Tailor, great restaurant, I reviewed it, loved it, it was great.

RP: Yes…and Michael Laiskonis, that kind of whole generational clique that you know at the time were at the top of the game and probably still are, but other things they are doing now, but when I moved here in 2004, they were really the players.

MR: I mean Laiskonis at Le Bernardin, incredible talent, and now he’s an instructor in culinary education. That’s cool. Gordon Ramsay, you worked for him. So I’m guessing he’s a nice guy—I just feel that way because he is so not on television, usually it’s the flip, or not… correct me…?

RP: Yes the fun thing is that when that place opened back in November of 2006, he was there every day, really doing the restaurant footwork, and I think he played everybody into really making him come across as a sort of authoritative figure and that also there was a lot of pressure not only on us but also on him to have it be successful, but a really nice guy, very friendly. When he entered the kitchen, he would shake everybody’s hand before he started the service and that didn’t exclude the waiters, captains, and dishwashers.

MR: I’ve heard great things about him personally and would love to have him on the show at some point. Ron, are you going to write a cookbook or a food culture book? Without the burden of time, meaning having no deadline, and without the burden of budget, meaning all the money in the world, what would that book be?

RP: It would be about all things dessert, restaurant desserts, all the way through to the making of chocolate, and I would also include, you know, the history how I got to that point. A lot of the books that I enjoy reading really explain the desserts and also the ingredients, you kind of want to read more about the individual journey, that would be interesting.

MR: That would be very cool. Ron Paprocki, thank you for joining Taste Podcast.

RP: Thank you for having me.